LeQuita Porter:

What is ableism, and how does ableism relate to racism? And is this important for the church? These questions and more will be answered in our discussion today with Dr. Lamar Hardwick, the author of the new book, How Ableism Fuels Racism: Dismantling the Hierarchy of Bodies in the Church. You don't want to miss this discussion. Dr. Lamar Hardwick is the former lead pastor of Tri-Cities Church in Atlanta, Georgia, and he is the author of Disability and the Church: A Vision for Diversity and Inclusion. He is a graduate of the Yale Divinity School's Clergy Scholar program and the GeorgiaForward’s Youth Gamechangers program. Dr. Hardwick regularly writes and speaks on disability inclusion in the church, and he has written for The Huffington Post and BioLogos. Dr. Hardwick is a highly sought-after speaker and is also a frequent guest on radio shows and podcasts.

As a Black autistic pastor and disability scholar, Dr. Hardwick lives at the intersection of disability, race, and religion. And in his book How Ableism Fuels Racism, he helps Christian communities engage in Christian conversations about race by addressing issues of ableism. Listen now to Dr. Hardwick's urgent and insightful message.

In my opinion, you have woven together a tapestry of history (church history, world history), the biblical witness and different interpretations, your personal story, which is amazing how you have included that, as well as a call to action, for the church at large, universal church, writ large. And you did all of this in 174 pages. So, I just believe it is wonderful that you're able to do that, but also it's very accessible in that there's a lot of depth, as I said to you earlier, in what you're writing, but there is a clear path that you're charting there. So, thank you. Thank you so much for writing this book.

I am curious as to what the motivation was for you to write this book at this time.

Lamar Hardwick:

Yeah, that's a great question. I think my motivation goes back to, a lot of the things that we saw at the very beginning of the global pandemic, particularly those things that we saw happen in the US in the summer of 2020, with a lot of racial unrest, mostly following the death of George Floyd, which was very public.

And also there was a case here in Georgia that I talk about in the book of a young man named Ahmaud Arbery who was shot and killed while jogging through a neighborhood in Brunswick, Georgia. And so my motivation came from us once again dealing with a lot of these highly charged racial situations, but also understanding that there's a depth to which we can understand the ongoing challenges that we have in United States with race that extends beyond just a lot of the conversations that we've had, which usually center around that, the idea that racism is based on skin color and skin color alone. That's sort of been the conversation.

And so as someone who has done a lot of work in disability studies, disability theology, I knew that there was a deeper conversation to be had about race that included understanding the role of disability and disability discrimination, which is often known as ableism, and how that's impacted the way that racism came about and how disability was used to create that. So I wanted to really talk about that, and that's my motivation to say, "Okay, while we're really dealing with this, let's have a conversation that helps expand what the challenges are." And hopefully, help us to take a step back and look at some solutions to the ongoing issues that we have with race in America.

LeQuita Porter:

Well, and you do a great job in this book of doing just that. I know that you mentioned about the different terms that are used, and you start off the book with a note about disability, and you start dealing with language. Can you say a few words about that, disability and other terms? You mentioned ableism a moment ago. Can you say more about how you define those?

Lamar Hardwick:

So I wanted to start off with a note about language because for those who have not traversed into the world of disability as much as I have, language is something, once you start to navigate the world of disability, disability studies, disability theology, you'll learn that language is a very big thing. And so, I wanted to just make a note to say... Primarily, you'll learn that there's sort of two central ways that people address disability. And I talk about that in the book, and that is identity-first language or person-first language. Identity-first would be what most people in the disability community prefer, which is to identify them by their disability because it is a central part of their identity. So for example, it would be like saying a person is autistic because that is a part of their identity. A person-first language tends to want to center the person first and not the disability as a way of saying that a person is more than their disability. And so instead of saying someone is autistic, he would say, "That person has autism."

And so I wanted to make that note. I personally prefer-identity first language. I also know that it's an ongoing debate, and so I wanted to honor that by talking about language [inaudible 00:07:13], but I also wanted to sort of help define what disability discrimination is. You asked about ableism, and so I give a short definition of that, and it's similar to any other -ism, right? It is the discrimination against people with disabilities based on their disability. That can span several different iterations and versions of how that plays out practically, but it is essentially discriminating against people with disabilities based on their disability. And so, I wanted to make sure that that language was defined upfront so that people could follow along with the discussion.

LeQuita Porter:

That is great, and that's quite interesting for me when you say that most people prefer or many prefer identity first as you do, as I would've thought it was the other way around. I've done a lot of work in churches around empowerment and dealing with issues of people being abused. And many people don't want to say, "I'm an abused person." I'm a person who was abused. And so that's interesting and that's good to know that the identity first. Yeah.

Lamar Hardwick:

Yeah. If I could respond to that, I think a large part of that is because... And I'll say that not every person with a disability prefers identity first. I think that a large reason why many people with disabilities do prefer that is because they have come to realize that their disability is a part of their identity. It shapes who they are, how they see the world, how they interact with the world. And so for many people with disabilities, to try to separate them from their disability is something that they feel like is trying to separate them from the very nature of their identity. So when you're an abused person, you have an experience of being abused. When you're a disabled person, it's not an experience of, it is an essential part of who you are. And so I think that would be the difference.

LeQuita Porter:

I get that. Thank you. Thank you for that. You're in your introduction, which you've entitled, "In Their Own Eyes." You mentioned earlier about what motivated you to write this, and within your book you talk about two instances in particular, of some tragedies that we all were made aware of, in addition to George Floyd, but the unlawful killings of two unarmed Black men, Elijah McClain in Colorado, an autistic young man, and Ahmaud Arbery in Georgia, a jogger. They were brutally killed, in Elijah's case by a Caucasian police officer, and then in Ahmaud's by a father and son, a Caucasian father and son, and both of these young men were accused by their assailants of being dangerous. In what way do these stories relate to your understanding of ableism and its impact on Black bodies in particular, but disabled bodies in general, in the world and in the church?

Lamar Hardwick:

Yeah, great question. So one of the things I wanted to do in opening up the book with those two examples is to show the connection with ableism and the deep history that we have in this country. And so, I think the best way to answer that is to understand that ableism as it is a discrimination against people with disabilities, it actually impacts the way that people see Black bodies. Because historically, Black bodies were considered inherently disabled. And so, that's actually the foundation of racial slavery, but it's also the foundation of how Black bodies are viewed. And what ableism does as it extends beyond just discriminating against a person with a disability, it also assumes the right to determine how to interpret the behaviors of Black bodies because they were initially deemed inherently disabled. And so what you get is, what I talk about with those stories is, the right to interpret those behaviors.

And in the case of many Black bodies, and this continues on to this day, in the case of a lot of Black bodies, ableism assumes the right to determine those behaviors as being dangerous. Ableism decides which bodies belong, where those bodies belong, which behaviors are dangerous. And so, what you end up seeing is, as a part of the historical narrative is, even to this day, because Black bodies were initially deemed inherently disabled, ableism plays a tremendous role in how the behaviors of Black bodies are often interpreted by white bodies. And so in the case of Ahmaud and Elijah, you see their behaviors, even though they weren't found with any weapons, they weren't found to have broken any laws, ableism and its historical connection to racism allows for white bodies to determine that their behavior was dangerous. And in those instances, those behaviors were considered threatening. And so, those individuals in each of those cases saw the need to react with force. And so, that's really what ableism does. It's not just saying, "Okay, you're disabled, we don't like you." It's also saying, "We get to decide where you belong and how you should behave."

LeQuita Porter:

So it’s not just, I think you mentioned about a ranking of bodies that is included, but it goes beyond that in terms of action, which is dangerous, right?

Lamar Hardwick:

Yes.

LeQuita Porter:

Talking about being dangerous.

Lamar Hardwick:

Much, much more dangerous. Yeah.

LeQuita Porter:

So you say in your book that racial bias in America, and you said it earlier, is not simply an issue of race, skin preference, or lack of diversity, but it's about disability discrimination. Ableist ideology creates the world in its own image and in its own eyes. Can you say more about that?

Lamar Hardwick:

Yeah. So ableism, it thrives because when you create a narrative that an entire population or entire group of people with a certain skin color are inherently disabled, you end up creating this narrative that positions that entire group as a symbol for disability, a symbol for bodies that are lower on the hierarchy.

But in order to actually help it thrive, you also have to create images of what a normal body looks like and how a normal body "normal functions." You create idols, in other words, in which the society is to look toward as to say, "This is the body or these are the bodies that sit at the top of that hierarchy." And so when you talk about ableism creating things in its own eyes, it is the creation of images and idols that helps support the idea that there are bodies that are lower on the hierarchy. And so we're going to give you an example of that by saying, “This group of people, these Black bodies are inherently disabled, but we're also going to give you images and idols to look toward, and in many cases, worship as the apex of human existence.”

And so these bodies are at the top of the hierarchy. This is the apex of the human experience. And in this case, in America, it was predominantly the images of white able-bodied males that became the symbol for the apex of human existence. And the inverse to that was Black bodies became the lowest on the hierarchy rung of bodies. And that's all due to ableism, not just the preference for skin color, but the designation of being inherently disabled is what helped to create those images and idols that were worshiped and looked towards as the apex of human existence.

LeQuita Porter:

Inherently disabled. I love the quote, I believe it's from chapter five where you said, "Ableism centers the experience of certain bodies that are considered best and the rest of the world finds their place in relation to how closely they can position themselves to what is normal, right, and preferred." That says it all, right? It creates that sense of otherness you mentioned. Absolutely. Absolutely. You discussed throughout the book a bit of Micah's story from Judges 17. Can you share with us, and I believe that's under the subheading of Ableism, Racism, and Religion. Can you share a bit of that with us?

Lamar Hardwick:

Yeah. For those who usually prefer and can actually more easily engage in the concept by having some kind of biblical narrative to follow, so I wanted to include that with the understanding that, and I say this in the book, you're not going to find the word ableism in the book, so that's a fairly common term. But what I wanted to help the readers explore biblically is a sort of a pattern that emerges when you read the Book of Micah, and that is, or you read the story of Micah in the Book of Judges, and that is there's first a theft, and it talks about that, but then also you see sort of the subversion of the consequences for that theft. But then you also see this pattern that I relate to the pattern in America and that is, Micah's mother uses the money to create and erect images and idols. Micah then uses those images and idols to create a religious institution in which he places the idols in his home, he assigns a priest. That priest actually is his son. So you raise the idol or image and you raise the institution, and you place people who look like you as leaders of that institution.

And so you see this sort of pattern in the story of Micah that is very similar to the pattern that you see in America where there is an initial theft or an initial sin, as I call it, you see the erection of idols and images in the story of Micah. You also see that in the story of America. And then you see the creation of institutions that are centered around those images and idols. And so what you see in the story of Micah, you see in the story of America: the initial theft of African bodies, the erection of images and idols of what the perfect body is in relation to these inherently disabled bodies that were brought over from Africa, and then you see an entire religious institution that's built around and built to support those images and idols. And the leaders of those institutions are those who are similar to those idols. So you get images and idols and you have leaders who look like those images and idols. And so, you end up with essentially a white Christianity that is led by white able-bodied men…

LeQuita Porter:

Men.

Lamar Hardwick:

...who continue to preach and promulgate the notion that Black bodies are inherently disabled. And so we all know the history and we can look at the documents of how that played out. But one of the things, again, that wasn't a part of the discussion was how ableism played a significant role in that. And that is, in order to continue to promulgate this message, you have to have a reason why these Black bodies are actually inferior. And so disability became a huge part of that by saying that, "Well, they're inherently disabled, so they're always going to be inferior. Then that's a designation that they will never be able to escape."

LeQuita Porter:

Yeah, I see. And you're speaking about Black bodies here because that's a clear example that you've used throughout, but you've also emphasized those other folks who are disabled, have been marginalized, as being ones with disabilities as well. This covers all of that, right?

Lamar Hardwick:

Mm-hmm. Correct.

LeQuita Porter:

I think you call it the big three of bias, the initial sin, images and idols, and institutions. I like that, that alliteration. You also talk about the resurrected Jesus as disabled, God with his wounds still visible. How can this offer a new image that transforms our idea of what it means to be made in God's image if [inaudible 00:22:01]?

Lamar Hardwick:

Yeah. So first I'll say, that that image of the disabled God is something that the late Nancy Eastland first introduced in her work way back in 1994. So for those who haven't heard of Nancy Eastland, she wrote a book called The Disabled God. And so she was the first to sort of introduce that image that Jesus was disabled because of the disabling torture of his beating and crucifixion, and how him being resurrected and retaining those wounds is a symbol of him being disabled.

And in doing so, in his choice to do that, can readily identify with the bodies in his time and also moving forward that were often considered inferior. And so that image, I talk about that. I have a whole chapter on that and I sort of break down one of the chapters of her book and talk about the political ramifications, the social ramifications, but also theologically, it gives an image that people who occupy this space of the disdained body can look to and see that we have a God who reverses death but retains the impairments, and chooses to be eternally identified by having an impaired body. And so if you think about it, that is a shocking choice that Jesus makes to return from death but retain the disabling marks.

Now we can get into, and I think I talk about it a little bit in the book, we can get into the medical things that would've actually happened to Jesus’ body. But I think it's a powerful image because it helps us sort of recenter our focus on the humanity of Jesus, the humanity of God. Oftentimes, especially as evangelicals, we center our gaze upon Jesus as the divine, which is true, but we also have to center our gaze upon Jesus as a human that experienced the suffering, but also chose to eternally be identified with those who have been deemed, those who have disdained bodies. And so that's a powerful image because now it opens up the door for those of us, regardless of color, who have human limitation, which is really all of us who have been designated as inferior, who have been designated as disdained because of our bodies, because of our skin color, because of our gender.

And it gives us a powerful image of a God who eternally identifies with that population. And I think it opens up the conversation theologically, again, politically, economically, it opens up the conversation to say, "Those of us who are on the margins, who have bodies that have been disdained by society, we have a God who identifies with that. A God who didn't just save the world, but he also survived the world and the things that the world does to bodies that it disdains." And so that's just a powerful theological image for us to hold onto for those of us who are trying to make our way through a world who often does not regard people with disabilities as people who are equally made in the image of God. And so if you have an image of God that includes that, it makes it very difficult for people to continue to have that view, that people with disabilities do not also reflect the image of God.

LeQuita Porter:

Amen, amen. It's the God who is acquainted with our suffering, and even have the scars to show that. But yeah, that is powerful and meaningful and intentional, right?

Lamar Hardwick:

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

LeQuita Porter:

It makes great sense.

How can the church counter this ableist obsession with grind culture? I will tell you that when I read through that chapter, it was late yesterday evening, and I was grinding at that moment, and I just sort of sat back in my chair and relaxed a bit. But can you talk a little bit about grind culture and how it impacts the church and this whole obsession that feeds into this ableism that we're talking about?

Lamar Hardwick:

Yeah. So if you look at the founding of this nation, you can even go back to the earliest immigration policies included, or I should say, were centered around not including even bringing over people with disabilities for those who are making the trip over to the New World and trying to establish this new society. And that was because production was one of the key elements of being able to come over to the New World. So, you had to have a body that was able to produce at a high level, and that even included women being able to have children. So even women who were unable to bear children were considered disabled because they didn't have the types of bodies that would be able to produce and to serve the economic goals of the New World.

So, that goes all the way back to the beginning. So when you look at how we continue to absorb that mindset and create that culture, grind culture is about having a productive body, a body that's able to produce, a body that's able to continue to assist in the economic goals of a capitalist society. So, that means that grinding then became actually a norm. And I don't know that I say this in the book, but I've said it in lectures, we're swimming in that culture and not realizing that that is a part of an ableist agenda. Because what it does is that again, it looks for bodies that are able to meet this image or this idol of what it means to be productive.

And that usually means that people with disabilities are not looked at as bodies that are able to produce, which we know is not actually true. But when you create an image and idol of what a productive body looks like, it often doesn't include people with disabilities or limitations. And so, what we have now then is this culture in which success is dependent upon your ability to continue to grind, to continue to work, to continue to produce at high levels. And your value then becomes how much you're able to produce, how efficient your body can be, how efficient your mind can be at being able to help produce, and so we, actually, even in the church, have adopted that mindset.

And I have to say there's a tinge of colonial philosophy in that too, right? And so it's always about producing, but it's also about taking new ground. Taking ground, and as Dr. Willie James Jennings would say, "Bringing it to full maturity," right?

LeQuita Porter:

Mm-hmm.

Lamar Hardwick:

And so that is the essence of what made people valuable in the beginning and what continues to make people presumptively valuable in our current culture. And so, I often say, we live in one of the few cultures that actually we brag about how much rest we don't get.

LeQuita Porter:

Yes. And how busy we are.

Lamar Hardwick:

As if that's a badge of honor, right?

LeQuita Porter:

Yes. Yes, yes.

Lamar Hardwick:

We talk about staying up late and you hear…

LeQuita Porter:

I didn't sleep last night.

Lamar Hardwick:

And we see on coffee cups, “I'll sleep when I'm dead,” right?

LeQuita Porter:

Right, right.

Lamar Hardwick:

Right. And so we're swimming in it, but at its core, what I want people to understand is that it's ableist because it puts a demand on bodies, and it also continues to exclude bodies that are presumptively non-productive because of their human limitations. Yeah, it's a difficult thing and the church has bought into it with our business models and our multiple services and our lack of ability to actually observe a Sabbath. And I tell people, one of the things that we have to understand is God is so much smarter than we are.

LeQuita Porter:

Amen. [inaudible 00:32:01].

Lamar Hardwick:

And there were provisions... Yeah. There were provisions and warnings against that very early on for the children of Israel, right? When He brought them out of Egypt, one of the first things that He wanted to do was help them to establish a mindset that was vastly different from the culture that they were submerged in in Egypt, which was to work, work, work, work, work, grind bricks without straw, making something out of nothing, and never resting. And so that was one of the first things you noticed that God wanted to do was to sort of help them to get out of that mindset. And that's one of the things that's difficult for us is to get out of that mindset and understand…

LeQuita Porter:

That's right.

Lamar Hardwick:

...the nature of grind culture and the damage that it's doing to our lives emotionally, spiritually, and physically.

LeQuita Porter:

As you're talking, I'm thinking about my time in pastoring and how I used to go through the service and push everything through, and then I always had to stay at the church several hours later so I could replay everything that happened because I wasn't fully present all the time in that. And that is a grind because then you're doing it primarily to evaluate for next Sunday and the next time. So yeah, you're right, I mean, bodies with no limitations. It's almost like that's the only thing that would be valued, but yet that's not real, and it certainly isn't healthy.

Lamar Hardwick:

Right.

LeQuita Porter:

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for that. I may be jumping a little ahead now, but I just got excited when I saw the part of your book that talks about joy, the importance of joy in this work of dismantling ableism and racism. Can you say more about that?

Lamar Hardwick:

Yeah, I heard a while back, and I think the person who said it was quoting someone else, and I don't want to take credit for it, so I'll just say, I can't remember the original speaker who came up with this idea. But I heard joy being spoken of as a part of resistance.

LeQuita Porter:

Amen.

Lamar Hardwick:

And that really, really sparked something in me to really think about that. And then also look at the ways in which we find joy actually even in the biblical text being used in that way. And so yeah, towards the end of the book, I talk about joy as a part of resistance, looking at how Jesus dealt with it. The verse that talks about, for the joy that was set before him, he endured the cross. And then the connection there was, it talks about how he endured the cross and he disregarded the shame. And so for me, one of the reasons why I wanted to end there is to talk about... A lot of times books like this, people want to flip to the end and say, "Okay, what should we do," right? And I'm like, "Well, if I do that, I'm just participating in grind culture," right? [inaudible 00:35:36].

LeQuita Porter:

Back to the [inaudible 00:35:40].

Lamar Hardwick:

Giving you a list now that you've read this book, do these 15 things on top of what you're already doing, right?

LeQuita Porter:

Right.

Lamar Hardwick:

I didn't want to do that. I wanted to give a solid…

LeQuita Porter:

Amen.

Lamar Hardwick:

...theological explanation of how to begin to not do but be different people. And so, one of those ways is to look at joy as resistance. And part of that, what we're resisting, at least as an initial way to start to unravel ableist society, is to disregard the shame that was placed on Black and disabled bodies. And by saying, “This is not something that we're going to continue to own. We are going to operate with joy in a way that resists that.” And I talk about different ways of doing that, like decentering our faith.

I put that in conversation with the current discussions about deconstruction, and decentering means as a part of that process of joy and then a part of that process of disregarding, we sort of widen our perspective and invite other conversation partners. And so, I even advocate for even looking to science, right?

LeQuita Porter:

Mm-hmm.

Lamar Hardwick:

To say, you know what, we have often thought of ourselves as the sole reflection of God's creative genius, humanity has. And I challenge us to look out on all of creation and see what God has done. And we see a lot of things that God created. I talk about several species of birds that have wings that don't fly, but none of the other birds in those species are shaming the other birds for not being able to fly, right?

LeQuita Porter:

Mm-hmm.

Lamar Hardwick:

And there's a joy in being able to own the bodies that we inhabit, the limitations that we have as humans, I talk about that also, and to find joy in being able to understand that those are the bodies that we've been given, the limitations that we have, but that's what makes us human.

LeQuita Porter:

Amen.

Lamar Hardwick:

And to embrace that and to disregard the shame that has historically come along with being Black or disabled or both. And so yeah, joy is a huge component of being able to do this work because it's an act of resistance.

LeQuita Porter:

Amen. No longer feeling like you have to be twice or 10 times as good as someone else, and therefore falling into the grind culture. For sure, that is big. And I have that in capital letters for a reason.

Neurodiversity, you've done a lot of work in this area, and I'm not sure that we defined that on the front end. If you can say something about that and the work you've done.

Lamar Hardwick:

Yeah, so real quickly, neurodiversity is, it’s basically the concept that human brains are as diverse as something like eye color or height, right? It's a part of the diversity of the way that humans are made. And so when you hear someone talk about being neurodivergent, it usually includes things that are like ADHD, autism, other neurological differences. And the call in that movement is to see them not as deficiencies, but just as differences. And so the work that I've done in that area is, I, myself, at the age of 36 was diagnosed autistic. And I tell people really around the age of seven or eight, I knew that there were significant differences between me and my peers. I just didn't have a language to explain why I didn't understand certain things. I pretended to understand a lot of things. And getting diagnosed just helped me to understand that my brain is just wired differently.

So a lot of the work that I've done in the area of neurodiversity, especially within the church and within the faith community, is not only to help people to start to see things like ADHD, OCD, people who have sensory processing issues, social anxiety, not just helping the church to see those things as ways that minds and brains have been created in the image of God that are just differences and not deficiencies, but also to help the faith community to try to prepare in practical ways to accommodate people with neurological differences.

So looking at things like better signage, looking at things like providing them with tools to navigate issues that may provoke their sensory issues, which is something that I have, loud noises, smells, a lot of tactile stimulation, those things set off my sensory processing challenges. And that's true for a lot of people who have neurological differences. So helping the church to understand that, helping the church to understand how to advocate alongside those who have neurological differences. So that they're not just helping create environments within the faith community that are better for them, but also to advocate outside the walls of the church for people who have neurological differences and other disabilities. So really to empower the faith communities. I think the faith community is the most underutilized resource for people with disabilities and neurological differences.

And that is because the church often has not been equipped to one, understand them, and then two, to create environments that help them thrive. And so that's been a large part of my work for the last, I'll say 10 years, is to help the church and help faith communities and other organizations to be able to understand it, but also advocate for those persons. Because there's a lot of wonderful gifts in that community…

LeQuita Porter:

Amen.

Lamar Hardwick:

...that often go underutilized.

LeQuita Porter:

Amen.

Lamar Hardwick:

And the church hasn't always been the safest space for them. And I really want to add the church to the list of organizations that are already doing the work to help empower them.

LeQuita Porter:

Well, I know that you've done quite a bit of work with Princeton Seminary around neurodiversity, and we thank you for that. I'm curious though, to know how are the churches receiving this from you, this training from you? Has there been any resistance or is there a curiosity, openness to it?

Lamar Hardwick:

Yeah. I would say, several years ago when I first got started, there was a lot of resistance. And I should say, there are a lot of other great people that I've met in this journey that are doing great work, and obviously working with Princeton has been a part of being exposed to a lot of other great people who are doing the work. And I've been able to collaborate with them, and I'm very grateful for the partnership that I've had with Princeton to be able to do that.

So there's been a lot of resistance in my experience in the past. I think churches are now beginning to understand the necessity of it. And I like to think that me as a pastor, especially when I disclose my diagnosis, I've been pastoring for over 20 years in various capacities. I've been a lead pastor of three different churches, one of those churches I've planted. But to see a pastor disclose…

LeQuita Porter:

Amen.

Lamar Hardwick:

...his neurodiversity, I think was a big thing. I saw a lot of other pastors follow suit. I've had a lot of other pastors in the last 10 years, read my writings and say, "Man, that sounds a lot like what I struggle with. I think I'm going to go get a diagnosis." So you start to see a surge of energy behind it. And I've often said, as a pastor, I understand very well that nothing happens in the church that is not important to the pastor or the leaders. And so, one of the reasons why I've been so open about my diagnosis, even though I'm no longer lead pastoring a church, is to get the attention of the leaders and the pastors, and to help them to be the agents of change. Because a lot of times I would go to conferences and speak at places, and I'd meet a lot of great people and they would get and receive the training that was given by myself and so many others. The problem that I started to see was they weren't decision-makers.

LeQuita Porter:

I see.

Lamar Hardwick:

So they could go back to their church with all these great ideas, but in the end, it's going to be the pastor and the leaders who cast a vision. And so as a pastor, I wanted to reach the pastors. And in a lot of ways, that's how I've also tried to write my books in a way that's accessible. But also, you mentioned it being a short book, because I wanted to also be something that people who were on the ground, the grassroots of this movement could read it and say, "I understand this, and this is something I can hand off to my pastor because it's not going to be a difficult read for them in their busy life. It's not going to be something long that they have to read."

And so I've seen over the last several years sort of a surge in interest in not just neurodiversity, but also disability ministry in general. And I've seen a surge thankfully, of leaders and decision-makers and pastors in churches being more open to this conversation and making necessary changes. Because in the end, like I said, it's going to be the pastors, it's going to be the leaders of the churches, the decision-makers that are going to be the ones who actually set the tone and create the vision and the culture for it.

LeQuita Porter:

Well, and for pastors, I'm sure it can be quite freeing, right?

Lamar Hardwick:

Mm-hmm.

LeQuita Porter:

Because I think congregations often are pretty ableist when it comes to who the pastor is.

Lamar Hardwick:

Exactly.

LeQuita Porter:

Pastor needs to be a person with no limitations, and so it's freedom all around, right? But it does need to be led by those who are influencers within their churches. So, that's great to hear though. That's great to hear that you've seen the progress.

So just turning the page a little bit, you on social media are referred to, and maybe all over, as the autism pastor. Again, that identity first and recognizing that that's a key part of who you are, and you've traversed this ground of everything you've shared with us and so much more that we're not able to get to in this conversation. But you've done all of this while fighting a battle against cancer. Can you please share a little bit about that since you do it very openly throughout this book, and I thank you for that transparency, but can you share a bit about that along with everything else that you've been doing?

Lamar Hardwick:

Yeah, so I am very open about it. It falls in line with the calling that I feel like I received from God when I got my autism diagnosis, which is to be open, to be transparent, and to be an example, hopefully, of pastors and high-level leaders to sort of deconstruct this idea that human limitation is something that leaders are not to have or not to openly express. So talking about my cancer journey, it's just been another leg of that ministry. So a little history, I was initially diagnosed in 2020. 2020 was such a great year, wasn't it? Like the [inaudible 00:49:18].

LeQuita Porter:

No [inaudible 00:49:19].

Lamar Hardwick:

I was like, "Oh my God, what else could go wrong?"

LeQuita Porter:

What else?

Lamar Hardwick:

Global pandemic, racial unrest, political unrest. And then in the fall of 2020, I was diagnosed with cancer. What I didn't put in the book, what I didn't tell people is, also in that year, our house got hit by a tornado. So we were just going through it.

LeQuita Porter:

Oh my. Okay. [inaudible 00:49:46].

Lamar Hardwick:

Yeah, 2020 was a whopper of a year. But thankfully, no, we were okay and everything eventually got repaired, but I was diagnosed in the fall of 2020. I had treatment, surgery, had about a year of remission, and then we discovered that it had come back. And so I started treatment, was preparing to have another surgery. And while my wife and I were on our anniversary cruise, always take on a cruise for our anniversary in January, I got a call from my doctor that the cancer, or they had found spots in my lung, so they did a scan. The doctor said, "Go ahead and enjoy your vacation and we'll do the surgery when you get back." But the scan that they did before I left had discovered that I had spots in my lungs. They were initially two small to biopsy, but eventually we did learn that my cancer had moved from stage 3 to stage 4.

And so, I'm currently still in treatment because we also learned about a year after that that surgical intervention was no longer an option, which really meant that the treatment that I'm getting is no longer curative, is palliative. Because I should say that the spots in my lungs were very small then, and they're still very small. Even though they've grown, we're still talking about millimeters, not centimeters. They're not inches big. And so, they're using the chemo treatment that I do now every other week basically to keep the cancer from growing or spreading. And so the doctors still believe, even though they can't surgically remove it, they still believe that I have a number of years ahead of me because the chemo is keeping the cancer at bay.

And then we also traveled around to the best cancer centers in the country and got some promising news that they are working on some new targeted therapies, which most people know as immunotherapy, that meet my specific mutation. And so in order to qualify for those drugs, you have to be able to match your DNA, and your specific mutation has to be able to match the drugs that are out there. So currently mine doesn't match what's available, but in talking to some doctors in these other institutions that we visited, there are drugs coming down the pipeline in the next year or two that do match my specific mutation. And so, our hope is that the chemotherapy that I'm doing now, which is working, will continue to keep those spots small and not growing while those medicines that are currently, I think in clinical trial stages one, phases one and two, eventually I'll be able to get access to those drugs, and they look very promising. So that's our hope as we continue to just battle this thing head on.

LeQuita Porter:

Amen. Amen. Cancer Warrior, that's certainly your hashtag.

Lamar Hardwick:

Yeah.

LeQuita Porter:

Yeah. You say there in chapter eight that battling cancer is truly a walk of faith. What keeps you so strong?

Lamar Hardwick:

You know, I posted something a while back that I didn't start this journey intending to be an inspiration. I started this journey intending to look for inspiration.

LeQuita Porter:

Wow.

Lamar Hardwick:

And so, what keeps me strong and what I think people see that inspires them is that I started off looking for inspiration at any place I could find it. So that's my wife, my children, my church, even though I ended up stepping down as the lead pastor at the end of last year. And if I say that I'm "retired," I still do some work like lecturing, guest lecturing places, but I'm not lead pastoring. And I do speaking engagements when I'm not in a chemo cycle.

But I find inspiration in my church who, they are probably the most loving community that I've ever experienced as a pastor, and they still stick beside us. When I said I was going to step down, they were like, "You can't leave. You're still a member of our church. You're still family." So I find inspiration in them. I find inspiration in other people who are fighting similar battles. And so to answer the question, what keeps me strong is I look for inspiration. I look for people who inspire. And I think what comes across is people find me inspiring because I feed off the inspiration of others. And then, the last thing I'll say is the prayers. One of the things I told my wife when I was first diagnosed is, "I think I'm going to have to go public." One is because I had just released my previous book Disability and the Church. So I've written two books while I've been battling cancer.

LeQuita Porter:

Amazing.

Lamar Hardwick:

Disability and the Church. And I was doing a lot of speaking and starting to get more well known. And I'm like, I just can't fall off the face of the earth. People are going to ask where am I at? But then also I told her I want to have as many people praying for us as possible.

LeQuita Porter:

Amen.

Lamar Hardwick:

And so, that's why I've been so public about it. And that's also been an inspiration to me, especially in the times where social media is being used for so many negative things.

LeQuita Porter:

Amen.

Lamar Hardwick:

For me, it has been such a positive thing. I have so many people all over the world, literally all over the world who are praying for us. And that also inspires me and keeps me strong.

LeQuita Porter:

Well, Pastor Lamar, I'm one of those people who have been a recipient of your inspirational messages. Again, your transparency as you go through this journey, and it is true that we do help each other through the process. Others going through their struggle will help you in yours. But as I read what you write, it's so accessible to anyone, and I can't believe that there's anybody that doesn't say, "That helps me with whatever it is I'm facing." And so, on behalf of all of us who have been inspired by your posts, thank you, thank you for that openness and for caring, even, as you said to your wife that you can't just fall off the face of the earth after you do this, you've got to put something out there.

Thank you for that selflessness, because there are some who would feel, "Okay, this is very private and I'm not sharing it with anyone." So, thank you. And your ministry continues. Again, you mentioned earlier about through cancer, you've written the two books. It's the first one is Disability and the Church: A Vision for Diversity and Inclusion, and then this wonderful book, How Ableism Fuels Racism: Dismantling the Hierarchy of Bodies in the Church. But you are just getting started, I believe, with so much more. As I learned from you earlier, you are in the process of writing, not one, but two more books.

And what a gift, what a way of demonstrating to us what God can do in and through what has been labeled as a disabled body. I thank you, my brother, and I thank you on behalf of all of our listeners. I would encourage all of you to find his books. This, How Ableism Fuels Racism was published in 2024, the earlier part of this year. Find it at any of your book outlets. I also was able to listen to it through Audible, and that's wonderful as well. But also any of his books, and he has his own podcast. Is it HardLee?

Lamar Hardwick:

Mm-hmm. HardLee Typical with myself and my wonderful, fabulous co-host Dr. Teresa Lee. And so yeah, we have fun talking about the intersections of faith, race, disabilities, and so much more. And so we just actually wrapped up. We do short seasons, and so we just wrapped up season one, so you can listen to those six episodes. But we're coming back before the end of the year with season two, so look out for that.

LeQuita Porter:

Amazing, amazing. Well, as you see there is more that is going on. Follow him on social media under Autism Pastor or under his name Lamar Hardwick. And you too can be inspired by his journey. Again, my brother, I thank you. Thank you so very much. And we just look forward to all of what you will put out there for us because we know that God is certainly not through with you. You've got a lot more to do. Thank you so much.

Lamar Hardwick:

I thank you for having me.

LeQuita Porter:

You've been listening to The Distillery at Princeton Theological Seminary. Interviews are conducted by me, LeQuita Porter, and Shari Oosting. Our producer is Garrett Mostowski. If you like what you're hearing, and we hope you do, subscribe to the podcast on Apple, Google Play, or your favorite podcast app, and you can hear many other interesting discussions. And while you're at it, leave us a review and let us know how we're doing. The Distillery is a production of the Office of Continuing Education at Princeton Theological Seminary. Find out more at thedistillery.ptsem.edu. Until next time, thanks for listening.